BONUS: Reluctantly Charmed by Ted Lasso (with Nadia Bolz-Weber)

Marisa  
Welcome to the Crown and Anchor greyhounds. This is Richmond till we die a conversation about the Apple TV plus show Ted lasso, where we explore the characters, their relationships to each other and how they're able to make us laugh until we can hardly breed one moment and then feel with the deepest parts of our hearts the next. I'm Marissa and I am a firm believer, that marshmallow fireside is the best candle at Bath and Bodyworks.

Christian  
I'm Christian. And one thing that always surprises people is that I got my first name because it's my mother's maiden name.

Brett   
And I'm Brett and I just wanted to share that I have been thinking a lot about getting my very first tattoo so I will keep you all posted on that. For this episode. We are thrilled to welcome pastor Nadia Bolz-Weber. She is an ordained Lutheran pastor, the founder of House For All Sinners and Saints in Denver, Colorado, the creator and hosts of the confessional podcast, as well as the author of three New York Times Best Selling memoirs, past tricks, accidental saints, and shameless.

Christian  
Nadia is a public theologian, and one of those people best described in her own words. So to quote her bio from her website, she writes and speaks about personal failings, recovery, grace, faith, really whatever the hell else she wants to, she always sits in the corner with the other weirdos.

Marisa  
When we started to see all the religious and spiritual imagery in season two of Ted Lasso, we knew we wanted to have someone on the podcast to have a conversation about all of it. We also knew it had to be the right person. Look, all three of us hosts have deep history in church ministry and Christian higher education. And from our view on the inside, we know a lot of folks that have been hurt and excluded by those who call themselves Christian. Pastor Nadia was the person we hoped would join us for this conversation, because she's felt those feelings of hurt and exclusion. And now having been called to ministry approaches her call is that of a door opener as opposed to a gatekeeper. And of course, she's a huge Ted less of a fan.

Brett   
So one last thing before we jump in, this episode does contain some as our low white would put it fruity language, we typically tend to edit the curse words out of our episodes with some kind of fun sound effect. But for this episode, we've left them in, it's nothing you haven't heard if you watch Ted Lasso. But if your kids are around and you don't let them watch Ted Lasso, it might be best to pop in an earbud. Or save this episode for that one quiet hour between their bedtime and yours. And finally, be advised that there are spoilers for season one and season two of Ted Lasso in our conversation. So if you haven't caught up on the show, go watch it. Come back and listen when you're done. Alright, let's get to it.

Marisa  
Please welcome our guest Nadia Bolz-Weber today. Whoo.

Brett   
Thank you so much for being with us, Nadia.

Christian  
So our audience, we have a lot of people who just aren't really familiar with the Christian space. And so while we know a lot about you and have read your books, and listen to your podcasts and seen a number of your videos, I do think it would be helpful for people to get just a little bit of the lay of the land of your experience. And I know a lot of our listeners have had experiences with people who call themselves Christians that left them feeling hurt and excluded, which is also part of your story. What's not part of most people's story is that you've then like come full circle back into pastoral ministry, which is a story that you tell in your writing. So what are one or two events that you might point to for people who are just meeting you for the first time that pertain to your call and coming back into I guess, Christian community at large maybe?

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
Yeah. So my call to ministry story actually sort of took place in a basement comedy club in Denver. And what happened was before I had definitely before I'd ever gone to seminary, but I was in recovery, I would go to this a meeting had a lot of other stand up comics, I'd been doing stand up for years at this point. I couldn't afford therapy, and it was, you know, then I got paid $30, to emcee, a set at downtown comedy clubs was a lot more affordable. But anyway, there was a beloved Denver stand up comic and a member of AA. So PJ had a lot of problems outside of alcoholism, including mental health problems. And sadly, he lost that battle, and he ended up dying by suicide. And when he died, all of our friends just looked at me and they were like, Well, Nadia can do his funeral. And I hadn't been to seminary, I was just literally the only religious person in my whole friend group. And so they're like, well, she's religious, she can do it. And so I said, Yeah, fine, I'll do it. And it was a comedy club in downtown Denver. And I remember looking out and seeing these people who are experiencing so much shared pain and loss, you know, all of these comics and recovering alcoholics and academics and queers. And, and they, it was clear they didn't, they needed somebody to guide them through their own grief. And I just, I thought, These people, these people need a pastor. Yeah, and then I went, Oh, shit, I think, oh, no, I think isn't me, like, I was like, I just like, oh, I should never have said that, you know, but it ended up being me. So my sort of like, call to ministry was really I felt called to be a pastor to my people. Not not to be a pastor within the giant mechanism institution of the church, however, they wanted to use me, I was like, wait a minute, there's a lot to be said about having shared spiritual practices, and marking the the year in a certain way together and sharing each other's burdens, and being able to pray and be desperate together, and also sharing joy. And, you know, a lot of times that takes place in religious settings historically. And so maybe, maybe there's not quite enough wrong with the church to completely abandon Christianity, and maybe there's just enough wrong to stay, you know, try and mess with it a little like that.

Marisa  
You found it house for all sinners and saints? How did that look different? And how is it also like a practice, you know, the practice of theology different from what a lot of people might think of as a typical expression of Christian worship?

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
Well, interestingly, it is very liturgical, you know, much, it's much more. It's very traditional. It's just not conventional, let's say. So it is sort of a high church liturgy, but it's done in a super informal way. And also, in a congregation of people who don't necessarily look like they belong in church. My dad says it's like high church at the Star Wars cantina. So that's the vibe. 

Brett   
So you're speaking Christians language?

Christian  
Yes. Both of those things.

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
So, you know, I had to start a church from scratch that I would personally feel comfortable showing up to. I mean, I'm still a part of, I mean, I'm not, you know, I'm the Pastor Emeritus at house. I'm not a member anymore. Although I'm presiding there this weekend. But I, I do preach regularly at the Cathedral here at a big Presbyterian Church and really all over the world. I preach all over the world if I'm honest, and and that's great, but there are very, very few churches that I have felt fully comfortable in. Yeah, and you know, houses one, there was one that was this really cool, like alternative worshipping community in Gothenburg, Sweden, that I went to on a Sunday night at the Cathedral, and I felt totally comfortable there. And, and I feel totally comfortable in the other congregation locally that I serve on a regular basis, which is inside the walls of the women's prison. So there's, there's a congregation that's just exclusively incarcerated women and I feel super comfortable with. Like, they're not going to judge me. You know, I'm not gonna judge them. I mean, that's the that's the fear, isn't it? So often, I can go to church, they're gonna judge me. I mean, who wants to who wants to have to bracket out huge parts of who they are and where to show up? someplace that's supposed to be spiritual. It's just a sense to me, you know? Well,

Marisa  
in your your whole Well, ethos, I mean, I'm not gonna speak for you, but what I've gathered from following you and listening to you is like you're always talking about it has to point back to grace. And so, you know, finding that in those spaces, like, usually has to look different than where we grew up. Yeah.

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
Yeah, I mean, and I mean, I don't know if you guys had an official way to pivot to Ted last. But I do want to say, you know, I went back knowing I was going to be on this, I went back and watch season two again. And it is just drenched in grace. That show is drenched in grace, it is extraordinary, that there are so many instances of it of people being accepted as they are not being expected to pretend to be someone else. You know. There's so much forgiveness in the show. It's extraordinary how much forgiveness is in that show? Like, yeah, even that, that beautiful Christmas episode, where they go to that boy's house, who was tormenting Phoebe is that the little girl, and, and she has the sign. And she's like, you know, as a Lutheran theologian, let me just backtrack. As a Lutheran, what we talk about a lot is, is this tension between this dialectic between what we call law and gospel? So LA is like, anything that convicts the conscience, anything that accuses us of not meeting some kind of mark, right? And then the gospel is this unmerited sort of grace that washes over us and goes, it's okay, stop trying so hard. Yeah. And I loved that in her little flip chart at his door when they were supposed to be caroling. It was law and gospel. Like she was like, Yes, you did this thing? Do you really hurt my feelings, and you are going to stink forever, unless you make some meaningful amends. Right. And before he even had a chance to perform some sort of apology, if that's what he was going to do, or even sincerely offer some kind of repentance. Before he even had a chance to do that. She said, I forgive you. Yeah. And the thing about that is that so often that unmerited grace and forgiveness that we want to withhold because people don't deserve it. They haven't been contrite enough, they haven't shown us they've changed enough. They haven't proven their worth. They're worthy of it. If first of all, if you have to prove you're worthy of it, it's it's something it's not grace, but just grace. But right. But I see this sort of contrition, and repentance, and change and humility, come as a result of receiving an earned forgiveness and grace. Not we will withhold it until you prove that to us. And that's what humans want to do all the time. But anyway, so I saw that even in that, that really sweet little scene. Yeah.

Brett   
And I thought it was, I pay really close attention to the music and the show. And I noticed that was the only time that a sacred song was playing in the entire episode. There's all that Christmas music and only one sacred song that's during that moment, which I just think speaks to the brilliance of this show even more. And since we've pivoted you know, I think the reason we knew that you got into Ted last was because you had a pretty funny tweet about it. I'm going to quote you to yourself, you know, everyone loves right. He said I started watching TED lasso last night to see if it was as charming as everyone says, but also to see if I could stand it because charming isn't usually what I look for in TV shows. I watched six episodes in a row. I am charmed, dammit Ted lasso. And so I think we saw that came across our radar and we were like, Oh my gosh, like Pastor boss whoever likes the show. Wouldn't it be so cool if we could talk to her so we see that the hype train was what got Ted lasso on your radar but surely,

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
no, no. Okay. Got it. Okay, I know that I shouldn't say this, but I'm only gonna say it because it's true. Brene Brown told me to watch

Brett   
That's a lot of people's story.

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
She was on my I did this thing on election day called keeping it together with Nadia bolts Webber on Instagram at the top of each hour during election day. Since we're all trying to keep it together. I invited different people at the top of the hour to help me keep it together for 10 minutes. I had I had different people I had, you know, the Episcopal Presiding Bishop Michael Curry. I had my mom I had Brene Brown. I had the founder of Muslim girl calm I had a rabbi like I was I was like, I'll take it from anybody I can get it from you know. So anyway, it was then she I had seen it that It was like in streaming, I knew nothing about it. But she was the one like, this is what I'm loving. This is what I'm loving. I am a massive consumer of television, I watch hours of television every day of my life. I am. I love television. But that tone, that sort of cheerful tone is not usually what I mean.

Christian  
We have considered and kind of given Brene Brown the title of the matron saint of our podcasts, because her podcast is what got my wife to say, oh, we should really watch this. And yeah, now like, here we are. So yes, that is very resonant with our experience. So you know, the cool thing is, you mentioned your time in stand up comedy. So you kind of understand, and probably like, see a lot of the humor that's going on there. What is it that makes the humor of this show work for people? And then for like you someone who, I'm guessing is being a little bit more analytical as you sort of like take in the jokes and the callbacks and the gags?

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
Well, first of all, it appeals to people my age, there's so many Gen X, sort of references in this show, I mean, HR Puffin stuff, like who else is going to know what that is? So I mean, there are certain those kinds of references are lovely. And then I think, first of all, one thing that people might not know about stand up comedy, is that the highest compliment one comic would ever pay another, of course, never if they're in the room, you would never do right. But to somebody else, as you say, Hey, have you seen so and so's act? And and they say no go? Oh, you should watch. They're a really good writer. That's the compliment. So stand up itself is all about writing. People may or may not actually, you know, write words on a paper. Right? Right. But it's writing because it is, it is all about economy of language and choice of word and inflection and things like that. And so, the writing on Ted Lasso is exquisite. It is beautiful writing. And so that is one thing that makes it actually funny is that the writing is good. And there and, and I think that it does, it doesn't seem to have it is the exact opposite of the equally brilliant writing on succession. Yep, yep, succession has genius dialogue. And almost all of it is our insults to somebody else. Almost all of it is at the expense of another character. And that is that is not the humor that's in lasso, but it's equally as brilliant. I mean, one of my favorite things about Ted lasso is Keeley and Rebecca's friendship,

Marisa  
yes.

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
Their friendship looks familiar to me, because I have so many female friendships like that. And it's never portrayed on TV. We're always competing against each other, or pitting against each other, or talking behind somebody being nice and talking behind someone's back.

Marisa  
There's only ever room for one female to win on a TV show. And that's not the case in Ted Lasso, and I love that.

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
Right. Right, right. Because me and my girlfriends will send each other sexy selfies to each other. And then, and then go on and on about how hot each other. I mean, on a fairly consistent basis, like, oh my god, you're so fucking beautiful. I mean, constantly. So this is a type of female friendship that's actually accurate when it comes down to it.

Christian  
So there's a lot that, you know, makes sense with the comedy. One of the things that would sound pretty horrible to me when it was pitched. But that works, amazingly, is all of the comedy and jokes that they inserted into season two that have a high church theme to them. So we get one at first with a Star Wars reference, like May the Force

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
Yes, that's yeah. My ex husband, I think had a t shirt that said Lutheran Jedi. May the force be with you and also

Christian  
so then they like go back to the well in a really big way with even an entire bit with Roy and Ted in the Euro shop. And Ted kind of like forcing No, this is church. This is church, this is church. What is it about that using high church vernacular as comedy Do you think that works on a show like as broadly popular as this?

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
Well, because most of the viewers I mean in England are going to be Church of England folks. So I think people in the UK are much more native to high church. than people in the US are, it's a smaller percentage of us who are in liturgical high churches in this country than in the UK. So I hate to talk about another television show.

Christian  
Anyway. It could be a spin off podcast for us.

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
Did you guys watch Midnight Mass? No. Oh, my. Just finished it. Okay. I don't generally watch horror. And so and this has a horror aspect to it. But like 10%, right. It's not. That's not the main thing. It is all high church, every single episode. I never in my life thought I would hear on a Netflix show. Here's somebody talking about why are you wearing a gold? Chazal? It's the third Sunday.

I mean, the whole thing is, it's, it's a high church, truly high church horror series. And it's a limited series, there's only like, nine episodes. And but the thing that I thought was extraordinary about it is that and I find this in really good pop culture that does dare to delve into religion, even like Book of Mormon or that that TV that movie dogma is things that are supposed to be making fun of religion, right? These these films and TV shows that pious religious people think are just absolutely sack religious right? And get very upset about them. I actually love the commentary, because it's the shit that we know is broken about religion. And I find them to be deeply faithful to what the core of religion is supposed to be about. In the end, the I cried for the last 10 minutes of Midnight Mass cried. Because it was so beautiful, because it showed what it was supposed to actually really be about which we all know that people don't leave Christianity, because they're like that Jesus guy has nothing to offer. People leave Christianity, because they believe so much in what Jesus that Jesus guy has to offer that they can't stomach being part of an institution that claims to be about it and clearly isn't. And so I think that often, pop culture can reveal the heart of something well, seemingly using most of its time to critique it.

Brett   
Yeah. And I think we see that portrayed. really interestingly, in a couple of other instances in the show, like you have the beard episode, which I loved. I know it's controversial, but I loved it. And then there's that like, pivotal scene toward the end where he walks into a church. And then he like, goes to the church basement, and it's like, everyone's like dancing, right? And like, he sort of like has this reconciliate this conciliatory moment with Jane,

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
which I was like, yeah. You know, okay, because, you know, what's interesting to me is upstairs in the church, he was praying to God, he's like, look, you know, first time caller. He prays to get her back, right? Like, this thing, where we use God like this divine vending machine. Like, if we can just put the right prayer quarter in, then the gumball will be released, of whatever it is, we are specifically asking for, that. We think this particular Gumball is what will make me happy, right? And so he's like, I want this girl and why does he say he says, I want this girl? Because life seems so much more interesting with her. Right? He has had an unbelievably interesting all evening without her. And he goes downstairs and he's the most interesting person in the room quite without her, you know. So I found that to be interesting in terms of what it says about us, and how we want to manipulate God to get like, why aren't you playing by my rules? Why aren't you if you loved me, my life would look like that. My life doesn't look like this therefore you don't love me.

Marisa  
One of the things that you said early on in our conversation is everything's kind of about like dad's on this show and like how fathers can really mess you up or you know, maybe you have a healthy one like Sam and his father do but I was thinking about that and kind of this idea that we talked about to on that you know, recurs on the show is this like fear and vulnerability and I know Brett already quoted you to you but you posted something just a few weeks ago on Instagram where I follow you and it's like, fear disguises itself in so many ways is greed, hate isolation, addiction, the list His endless, but in the end fear is at the root of it all. And then you talk about how it keeps us isolated in small and steals away joy and possibility. So would you maybe talk about some of the ways you see fear or maybe a lack of vulnerability in some of these characters and how they reveal themselves on TED Lascaux,

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
the issue of masculinity came up in my confessional podcast all the time, all the time. And masculinity is the subtext of the entire table in some way. And so, here you have Nate emasculated his entire life by his asshole dad. And what that what that the pernicious effect that has on the developing psyche of a young man, and that and how much hatred gets turned inward because of, of how poorly mirrored you were by your father, you know, and so the fact that he spits in the mirror, yes, itself, breaks my heart. And the fact that he, because his own self hatred, demonstrated itself through these two seasons into opposite ways. One way was in the fact that he wouldn't even correct someone when they got his last name. Right, he did not have enough of his own dignity, to defend in the face of all of the insults of the other players, all of that. And then, when Ted does finally see him, as his name, starts paying attention, when he says stuff, bring some alongside the coaching staff, all of that stuff, it's almost as if his hatred of himself could not be healed by just that. And so what it did was then it turned into attacking the next guy on the totem pole down from him being cruel to him. And then in sort of having this inflated sense of himself, so both the under like the completely deflated sense of himself and the overinflated one. Both of these are, are a sign of insecurity. And that stemmed from I think, just him being fathered so poorly his whole life, you know.

Christian  
something that's developed, and title. So fandom now is a real, I would say hatred of Nate, like, there was a long time where everything in the title so corner of the internet was positive, positive, positive, like cheery, cheery, cheery. And then one thing that we've noticed is when we post you know, screencaps of scenes or whatever, on Instagram, or on Twitter, undoubtedly, numerous people will jump in and call me names like, say, horrible, I'll be good. So he deserves Nate the snake that identified that. And I almost wonder like, if a lot of fans are maybe their hearts are getting so hardened toward Nate, that if there is a redemption arc, like it will be difficult for them to fully, like, enjoy that and find meaning in that in, in ministry, and in the show. I guess just like what kind of encouragement or perspective might you give folks when it comes to redemption and forgiveness and maybe even loving your enemies?

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
Well, I do love what Ted said in in the funeral episode, where he goes, You know, I used to think that if you did good things, people who did good things went to heaven and people who did bad things went to hell. But now I know, all people do both. And in Lutheran theology, the Latin term for this symbol, Eustace applicata, which I have tattooed on my wrist, which means simultaneously sinner and Saint, that we are all simultaneously both those things that there is, even though TED is this really great guy, there's there is a sinner in there. And just because Nate at this point, has done some horrible things, there's also a saint in there. And so I think the compat having compassion for that is not the same as excusing behavior, you know, and right now, we are in the eight, quote, the age of accountability, and so What that actually turns into is the age of performative cruelty. And so if somebody has made a mistake, they've acted horribly, they've caused harm in some way, then of course, they're taken out like trash. But part of the reason that we all sort of ganging up on people to as we say cancel them really is the instinct within us to protect ourselves like part of the, the culture that we have right now of performative cruelty around people's mistakes. It camouflage is itself as this noble, but we are not going to allow anyone to pretend that harm isn't harm, right? Okay, man, for sure. I telling the truth about her. I'm, I'm about that 100%. But people are terrified to go the next step and go, What does forgiveness look like? How do we allow people back onto the island after we voted them out? You know, is redemption possible? Or do we really just throw people away? What would it look like for Nate? To have a redemptive story? I think it's possible, I think, I think that he could have a realization of what he was doing, and to then break down and sort of tell the truth about it and to have people go, man, we love you. The love that we've had for you for years, isn't now completely evaporated. Because you did this thing that was deeply hurtful to us. You still matter? You know?

Christian  
Yeah, I think a lot of people's feelings about Nate and their reactions, like it's probably grounded in the nature of his transgression against Ted, I think that like violating the privacy of Ted's mental health, like that just really strikes in a lot of us because we live in so much fear that, you know, people will find out about our mental health issues or that something is on the line, if people find out about that. And so I do think, you know, it comes from a place of fear and hurt, but yeah, it's, it's intense out there on these internet streets.

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
Well, it just makes me go, have you not heard anything, Ted? 

Christian  
yes, Ted, there is kind of this like, Ministry of title. So obviously, one of the places that we see that in a different way, is in the scene at the funeral for Rebecca's dad, and in that episode, you have the vicar, but the vicar is not really useless.

Brett   
Yes. I was gonna say he's yelling at everyone all the time. Yeah, he's

Christian  
not the center of the ministerial work that needs to happen in that grievous sacred moment. Instead, it is like Rebecca, and Ted. And so what kind of statements do you see being made there about outsiders coming in and having a voice within the, you know, structure of the church?

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
Yeah, that guy was just completely inept. I, one of the things that I love about this show to not answer your question is, is, is the fact as somebody who has gotten a lot of slack from Christians about my how I talk, they're super offended, because I say, I use bad words. Meeting, I don't just, like, normal fucking people. You know, it's not like I'm faking a British accent, or something, I should actually be shamed, then I should be ashamed. They're like, you're supposed to be an example. I'm like, an example of what, like competitive piety or pretending to be a person I'm not I don't understand how that's an example. For me to pretend to be someone or not. Anyway. One of the things I absolutely adore, is how filthy the writing is. There is I mean, in the Christmas episode, Ted lasso makes a reference to a well hung porn star. And, and Rebecca is like the only thing I want to see Daniel Craig and Rachel vise do as fun. Yeah, I mean, it's really there's this rawness to it. But it is in the television show that shows the most grace and forgiveness and kindness and compassion and grace and forgiveness and kindness and compassion. Those are actually Christian supposed to be a Christian virtues, not not Pearl clutching nice language, you know, not like policing if people are saying the bad words, right. And so I am Absolutely adore that all of these things that you might maybe find in some over sentiment lies schlock, like Touched by an Angel, I guess I don't know. I've never watched it. But, you know, you you might find like compassion and forgiveness. But the fact that it's in this real life and amongst the way people really talk I found really beautiful actually, and real and transgressive. And even in in the, the church episode, you know, with the funeral, there was like, such beautiful ministry happening quite apart from the clergy person the entire time. Yeah, like the fact that the, the one guy wore shoes for the first time as this like, act of love, you know, and the fact that the women were laughing their asses off about, about Rebecca sleeping with Sam and like raucous, joyful, steal the communion wine laughing. How dare that happen in a church? Are you kidding? Do you know how much healing is happening in their neuro chemistry when they're doing that? That is like, that's a healing, you know? And so they're then people standing up and singing with her when she was broken down. And it could have been that moment of embarrassment. And it wasn't, I mean, just so much beauty. Why can't the church understand? Like any of that?

Marisa  
How did it affect you? You know, going back to our conversation with about Nate, when he ultimately rips the believe sign?

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
It was, you know, there is so much horrible behavior that I am not excusing. And I'm not. I'm not diminishing the harm of it. I'm saying, nobody's doing well, right now. Nobody is doing well. I'm not doing well. I do these fucking podcasts that make it makes it seem like I am. I'm not doing well. I'm barely functional. So nobody's doing well. And not everyone has ways of metabolizing that of like having support in their lives. And like, Nate, Nate's not doing well. It comes from a place of pain. You know, when people when people gang up on folks online and are really like abusive to them, that performative cruelty that is never really demonstrated by people who are doing well and who really have a sort of somewhat easy, lovely, happy, pain free existence. So we're all trying to figure out what do we do with our pain? And my buddy Richard Rohr says, Look, you, you can tell a lot about somebody by what they do with their pain. Do they transform it? Or do they just transmit it? And so when when Nate did that, it's like, that only can come from so much pain.

Brett   
Well, speaking of podcasts, you have a podcast that you host called the confessional, and you invite guests to share times when they are at their worst. And we've seen some of the TED lasso characters and some of those moments or heard about them. What has been the reaction from folks who listen to the confessional that you've that's gotten back to you.

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
It's been overwhelmingly positive, I would say. I mean, it was my antidote to cancel culture, to say, because my, my deepest commitment is always going to be to grace and forgiveness. It has to be, I just don't see the redemption in my deepest commitment being to outrage. Yeah. So to say that, and the reason I talk so much about mercy, and compassion and forgiveness is not because I'm an expert. It's because I'm an asshole. It's because I'm in desperate need of these things. That's why and so to say, hey, I really want to invite people into tell me what's the worst thing you've ever done? Like what? Tell me a story about when you're at your worst when you did something that was really hurtful to yourself and other people. And if you do that, I will exchange it for a blessing. I will ask compassionate, curious questions. I will not stand in judgment of you. I'll try to get you know, get down to some bigger truth. I'll let your story breathe. First of all, it's not tell me the worst thing you've done in 160 characters and let me judge who you are as a person to be clear. It's letting the story breathe. It's showing some interest like asking questions when a man tells me about a time when he was overly aggressive with a woman and he never wanted to be that way. And I asked him in all fairness, did you ever in your life, see a man model different kinds of behavior towards a woman? Right? And for him to be like? No, I'm like, okay. It doesn't matter. Excuse it, it doesn't mean it wasn't harmful. But let's have a little fucking compassion for ourselves with when we're at our worst, you know, and then, and then I listened to it six or seven times that conversation, the recording of it, and then I write them a blessing, I try to take the best part of Christian teaching and thought in practice, and just offer it to anybody for whom it might be useful. My friend is a Episcopal priest in Portland. And she describes it as sneaking into the cathedral and looking around for the most beautiful, like valuable shit, and then hauling it into the front yard and slapping a free sign on it.

Brett   
That's amazing.

Christian  
So you've been now recognized by your denomination, as a public theologian, like that is a shift in, I guess, just what the practice of your ministry looks like. And you've started created an online community that you've named the corners, and no better time to do that in the last couple of years, when we're trying to figure out like, how can we have spiritual connection with each other? When it's not always safe? To do so? Physically? What have you learned in the process of that community growing? And what are some of the tenants behind that space and the content that you have there?

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
Yeah, so, um, I wanted to, well, first of all, part of it had to do with the fact that like, if Beyonce has taught us the means of our creative production, and so it was a way of saying, you know, okay, I've made Random House millions of dollars, I think I might just step back and, and be the be the person who profits off of my work instead of it, the profit from my work primarily being big corporations. And so part of it was that, and then part of it was, I wanted to have a space where grace is kind of at the center, in where conversations can be openly had an engaged with around issues of confession and forgiveness and the things we're struggling with now. And the interesting thing is when I started it a couple months before the pandemic started, and then when the in March 2021, morning, on Sunday, I woke up and wrote prayers and published them. And then I just kept doing that every week, for a year, I'd write Sunday prayers, and people would just be like it, but they were honest prayers. You know, they were very deeply honest about what it felt like to be going through this. And, and people were very grateful. They'd be like, I don't know how you crawl into my head every week and say, what's going on? And? And so it's kind of all I have to offer is, I don't mind just saying, honestly, what, how I experience life, you know, and hope it's, it's useful to other people,

Christian  
do you find that the online format allows people to be more honest than in person format? Like, is that part of what's going on there? Is it simply now you're, you're speaking the language of the people in kind of that virtual space?

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
Well, there's a particular type of like, anonymity allows a particular type of vulnerability, but it also allows a to a particular type of horrible behavior. I mean, there there are things that people have said about me consistently online. I know, I know that if they were in the same room with me, I know they wouldn't do it. You know, I just I know they wouldn't. You know, who talked to me about that was Monica Lewinsky. I said, how do people treat you in person and she goes, honest to God, three or four times in my entire life, has somebody been shitty to me, in personnel. But every day of my life since I was 21, people have been shitty to me online. So it you know, it gives with one hand, and it takes me to the other. So maybe people might be more apt to be a little more vulnerable, but they're also more apt to be horrible. With no consequence. I mean, the ways in which our brains are bio hacked right now for profit is really deeply disturbing to me. Yeah. There is a dopamine hit every single time. You get likes and comments, I'm addicted to it. I'm addicted to it. Everybody's addicted. And so what happens is they've done all these studies that say, if you if you put out tweets or Facebook things that have more inflammatory extreme language, you get a much higher percentage of engagement. You get you get a lot more people going in. Yes, thank you this, you know, if you're, if you haven't dialed up a bit, and then you get this dopamine hit from it, and maybe that might not be the best part of you speaking, right? It's probably not the best part of you speaking. And so maybe you're kind of acting out a little by doing that. Or maybe you're expressing sort of the worst part of yourself as a release. That's fine. We all we've all done this. But now you're getting now you are rewarded for it. And so you get this dopamine hit. It's very addictive. So the next time you step up to the tweeting plate, you go, Okay, what got me the dopamine hit last time? And how can I do a little more of that? And if you genuinely wanted to express something that was more positive, you're not going to do it. Why? Because your engagements much longer?

Brett   
Well, I think we have one more question. And to kind of bring it back to Ted last. So I do want to comment on that dopamine hit and the way that Twitter gives and takes away like we see in a big way with Nate with it is it's so heartbreaking. Oh,

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
it just, it just, I felt that so deeply. There's a

Brett   
million nice things. Oh, one comment. Bad.

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
I felt that so hard. I, I did not know, I would love to tell you that I have such a strong sort of healthy ego, that I'm unaffected, that I'm unaffected by people's criticisms of me. And if I told you that I would be lying. Now, certain people are more effective by than others. But when my first memoir came out, and I was trying to write my second one, I didn't know a good reads was, and I was like, What is this I keep people see people posting and I look it up. And then it has, like, I'm like, I wonder if my book is on Good Reads. So I put it in. And I scroll through all the five stars and four stars, because they're idiots, right? I mean, they're probably easily pleased. These are not. These are not discerning people who give me four or five stars on my books. So scroll, scroll, scroll, I read every single one and two star review every single one. And then I texted my editor. I don't think I should be a writer. So I, so when we need I get a lot of affirmation online, a lot and such a minimal amount of criticism really. And yet, I, I could tell you word for word, what those criticisms were, I mean, I can't tell you word for word, what the positive ones were, because they're just background noise to the thing, that I suspect that bad thing that I suspect might be true about myself shit, if people like hit on that, then I'm like, Ooh, they're right. You know,

Marisa  
as a professor, I understand that keenly. When our students get to write, you know, a review about us, I always make bread, you know, open the thing first and screen them or pour me some wine before I can even start reading.

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
Really hard, but, and yet, we have to be open to criticism, right? On some level for to critique like, when when the reaction is to there, therefore go. Nothing anybody ever says about me that is vaguely critical has any merit whatsoever? Well, that's not always true. So to me to have this sort of, to have a healthy ego is to say, I'm going to really try in a measured way to consider is 5% of this something I should listen to, and then really dismiss the other 95%. That's the healthy thing, I think. But to watch Nate do that just broke my heart because I've been there. I've been and I knew he kept doing it. He couldn't even turn around when someone was talking to him because he was so addicted to it. And I'm like

Brett   
I've been I said I was asking the last question, and then I didn't. But to ask the final question. We, as we're talking about Nate, and unresolved points, what is something that you are hoping or a relationship that you're interested in seeing a resolution to in season three? We'll go Yeah,

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
I do. I do want to see a redemptive arc for him. I really do. I think they can pull it off. I really do. I think they can do it. And I think the audience can go alongside. It's tricky, but they've done so many other tricky things, haven't they? Yes, they've done extremely tricky things. Just brilliant. So yeah, that would be my greatest desire. And I'm just as angry at him as everyone else. You know, I'm furious, but I don't know. I'm a sucker for forgiveness. You know.

Christian  
Forgiveness is should be the currency that we are operating with. Right now. And hopefully, that's a reminder that I can take with me from this conversation. We do appreciate your generosity with your time today. And you know, at the risk of giving you that dopamine feedback loop, you have been very busy. formative for us and for our faith in our lives. And so it's been just amazing for us to get to talk with you and thank you for sharing in this. This communion of total so with us.

Nadia Bolz-Weber  
Hey friends, thanks so much.

Marisa  
Thank you have a great day

and that is our show. We hope you enjoyed our discussion with Nadia Bolz-Weber. You can check out the show notes for links to her podcast, her social media accounts, her writings in her website, as well as all the other cool stuff we mentioned in this episode. We'll be

Brett   
back here soon with more Ted lasso conversations, but you can keep the conversation going with us on Twitter and Instagram. Our handle on both is at TED lasso pod.

Christian  
This episode of Richmond till we die is brought to you by Jim and Karason productions. It was produced by me Christian,

Marisa  
me, Marissa and me, Brett.

Christian  
If this conversation made you laugh, think or cry. We ask again. Thank you take a moment to give our show a five star review and subscribe to our feed. It's the best and easiest way you can show support for the pod.

Marisa  
Okay, I'm Marissa signing off for Brett and Christian and our esteemed guest Nadia bolts Weber. Thanks for listening. And until next time, cheers y'all.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai