BONUS #MedLasso! (with Drs. Mark Shapiro and Sayed Tabatabai)

Brett   

Welcome back to the Crown and Anchor greyhounds. This is another bonus episode of Richmond till we die a conversation about the Apple TV plus show Ted lasso where we explore the characters, their relationships to each other, and how they're able to make us laugh until we can hardly breathe one moment and then feel with the deepest parts of our hearts the next.

Christian  

I'm Christian, I'm married to the 2020 Kansas family physician of the year and so I've gotten used to never being the smartest person in the room.

Brett   

And I'm Brett and I've known I wasn't the smartest person in the room since third grade when a girl named Jessica who's way smarter than me always beat me in every standardized test and I'm still salty about it. As you can tell

Christian  

y'all today for the first time ever. We have not one but two special guests over here. Dr. Mark Shapiro is currently a full time hospitalist in Northern California. He's the creator and host of explore the space podcast, a show focused on bringing those who provide health care and those who seek health care closer together through conversations with leaders from across the spectrum. And he was recently the recipient of the I stand with her hashtag He for She award at the 2021 women in medicine Summit. And also joining us partway through the podcast is Dr. Sayed Tabatabai. He's an nephrology specialist which means kidney and urinary tract specialists in San Antonio, Texas. He's also an incredible science fiction writer in the last year read one of his pieces on NPR his weekend edition Sunday, most impressively, Dr. Tabata by plays the role of Darth Vader for the Star Wars Society of San Antonio at various charitable causes.

Brett   

Wait the role of Darth Vader? Darth Vader isn't real.

Christian  

Oh, boy, Brett. Sounds like it's time for us to have the talk. But we'll save that for later. Dr. Tabata by regularly appears on explore the space with Dr. Shapiro to talk about Ted law. So they started the hashtag metal so on Twitter, which has now become a virtual gathering place for medical professionals to bond over the show online. My wife's a physician so I took notice right away when I came across the middle so community and just knew we needed to have these gentlemen on the show to share some of their experiences with the show, the middle so community and the experience of pandemic medicine. Listeners, please join us in giving a warm welcome to Dr. Mark Shapiro. Dr. Shapiro. Thanks so much for joining us,

Dr Mark Shapiro  

gentlemen. Thank you. I'm delighted to be here. I cannot wait to get amongst it

Christian  

On our end this is our first ever Ted Lasso podcaster Summit. And so we're excited to totally explore this new territory. How did you meet Ted last so how did you hear about the show? How did you start watching it?

Dr Mark Shapiro  

It's it's so fun. You know, I remember when the Saturday Night Live mini short with Jason Sudeikis dropped, because I'm a Tottenham Hotspur fan. And yeah, when that came, yeah, come on you spurred so when that came out, gosh, was it six or seven years ago? I watched it and I was underwhelmed. I remember being like, Oh, come on. It was right around the time, I think that NBC secured the rights to air all the Premier League matches in the United States. Yep. And I was like, this just did not work for me at all. And I liked Sudeikis. I was like, Oh, well, they'll keep they'll keep tinkering and then vanish. A buddy of mine. It's been, what two years ago is like a Shapiro, you watching TED last I said, you know, I saw the trailer. I remember that video short, this looks really hokey. I'm not interested. My wife and I are interested watching something else at the time. He's like, no, no, you don't understand this. They're like five episodes, and you got to check it out. So I went for, you know, this is a, a high school buddy, one of my best friends forever, I trust him. He knows me. Well, he says, Shapiro, you've got to get it on the show, you've got to try it, get the first two episodes under your belt. It's a slow burn. But once you're in, you're going to be hooked and holy smokes, you would write.

Christian  

So then how do you get to the place where you start to think, you know, this show that I'm really enjoying? It might fit in well as either one episode are as kind of like recurring episodes in this medical leadership podcast that I'm doing. Yeah.

Dr Mark Shapiro  

You know, explore the space was designed to be an ecosystem for lack of a better term. And I don't like admin speak. But it is that sort of dynamic, agile place where we can have lots of conversations on broad topics with lots of brilliant people on topics that are important. You know, everything from, as you mentioned, leadership equity, climate change, gun violence, it's not didactic medicine, it's large scope, things that affect Americans that affect people all around the world. And it's been an amazing experience. And in doing that, it's allowed me to have a very eclectic guest list. And a very eclectic topic list. It's, you know, I'm the creator, producer, host everything. So I get to kind of guide it the way I want to. And I would have never thought I would be doing sort of a pop culture. Adjacent show though. I'm a pop culture addict. And I love it. What I noticed that just like my friend reached out to me and said, Hey, Mark, you need to watch this show, I found that I was doing the same thing. After I had gotten into it. After I had watched most of these. I'm texting my friends. I'm texting our hashtag mid Twitter community reaching out little feelers. Hey, anyone else watching this? How does this show make you guys feel? And what are you experiencing on it? And slowly, I started to see that this was not just, you know, destination television that has nothing to do with healthcare and people in health care. It has to actually it's actually deeply resonant. And that resonance as it unveiled itself, then it made it clear that you know, this makes sense to have some content on explore the space that will not only be meaningful, but also holy cow, so much fun.

Brett   

So you mentioned some of the reasons already, but what are the reasons that as you reached out to folks like on the med Twitter, like when the when the med Last Avengers were assembled? What was it that kind of you all coalesced around specifically? Like, what was the did you

Dr Mark Shapiro  

just say the mid lasso? Avengers? Yeah. Oh, my gosh, I'd rip up in applause right now. That is, That's high praise. I'll be completely transparent on this. This gets back to one of the fundamental reasons that I'm on social media. I like sports highlights, I like movie trailers. I like finding out about conferences and concerts and things of that nature. Since the COVID, 19 pandemic hit that all change and it really became much more of a place for me to seek community because all of our other communities are so disrupted. And right part of that is then reaching out as I'm meeting people within healthcare outside of healthcare to look at these virtual meetings, but still like finding some common ground finding some interests, whether it's, you know, coffee, or leadership content, or books or enjoying our, our peloton and our exercises together, or this TV show. For me, I feel very comfortable in that space of reaching out to other people and saying, Hey, are you watching this on that platform on Twitter, that's the place where I have the biggest presence. And in doing that, and kind of keeping with that it felt obviously very authentic. Because I've been doing it, it felt very meaningful, because I am seeking that community, right. My wife and I like our, our, our world around us, just like everyone else was very disruptive. I'm also seeking some distraction and some entertainment because work is stressful and, and very anxiety provoking, especially in the early days of the pandemic before we were vaccinated. So it was it was all of a piece it all felt very natural. It felt kind of in rhythm it felt in tempo for how I like to kind of interact. I'm texting with my friends all the time. Anyway. So texting them and saying, Hey, by the way, go Dodgers. And are you watching TED last up? Same thing on Twitter. Hey, we're seeing this. We're experiencing this. How's it feeling for you? Hey, here's a new Explorer. This base episode. By the way, I'm really enjoying this TV show. Have you guys checked it out?

Christian  

Yeah. And I mean, certainly the show stands up on its own, but it has been released. In this over this backdrop of COVID, and the first season is released. And I think that's kind of in just a really difficult period of COVID for a lot of people and a lot of healthcare professionals, and then the health care professionals that I know, got optimistic because the vaccine was released. And then there was widespread opportunity for distribution in the spring. And it seemed like, okay, at least we're gonna have like a great summer, and then delta hit kind of, you know, surprisingly, and unfortunately, and things got much worse, much faster than anticipated, kind of right as season two is really seeing. And as season two is ending, now, I know that in our area, like, we're just getting crushed by delta, like it's a really difficult time. So when you think about the differences between when the seasons were released, and what COVID felt like during then, and then the difference between the seasons themselves kind of that optimistic, upbeat, season one, and then the dark forest Empire Strikes Back, much darker season two, how do you just kind of view now, how you've processed those seasons in the times they were released?

Dr Mark Shapiro  

It's an interesting question, I really come at it from a place of appreciation for the talent of the the writers, and the producers, the actors, everyone that's involved in this to create something that can be so smoothly and genuinely applied to a crisis that exceeds what most of us had experienced in our lives. You can't plan for that. But to create something like that, that fits, I mean, this is match fit content for what so many people were seeking and needed and feel really validated, entertained, fulfilled by that doesn't happen by accident, right? These are extraordinarily talented people at the top of their game, I don't think it would have met, you could flip the season's around. And you know, in terms of tone in terms of mood, and I think we'd still feel the same way. I think that it's more that they bring out these themes of people living in a chaotic time, creating community, creating family, creating a team, through principles such as accountability, and communication and validation and equity, and accountability, and empathy. Oh, my gosh, who isn't seeking that right now? And to have that sort of fall out of the clear blue sky? During the pandemic? It's just been very satisfying.

Brett   

Yeah, I know, as we've already referenced, like the very bright, mostly bright season one versus season two, but I do think that in season two, there's still a lot to be optimistic about. And a lot was very life affirming, you know, despite all of the, you know, the drama that is going on between all the characters that we love so much now, that's what makes it hard. There's still so much to take out of each episode. And so I'm wondering, like, in addition to Ted lasso, what other things is the medical, our physicians and the other medical community like recovering what's recharging y'all? Yeah, what other things you coalescing around?

Dr Mark Shapiro  

Boy, you know, I think that we are not in a place where we're thinking about how we're recovering yet, I think we would all most would say they really still feel like they are fully immersed. When we try to look a little bit forward and see what the road looks like in terms of piecing ourselves back together, piecing our profession back together, our communities back together. It's nebulous, it's nebulous. And having something that can take us away from that worldview for a few minutes is is is gratifying and appreciated. I think that finding things like that is the currency of the realm of its premium, I have a thing that I like to put on Twitter, where I'll say something, it's premium content. And I do that for lots of things. That's just for me, because all this took me out of my head for a couple minutes. This, you know, last night, it was the, you know, the Dodgers for the walk off home run like, Oh, I'm gonna delight in this for the next half hour, you know, tomorrow, it's the Dodgers and the Giants tonight. It's Ted last. So it's finding these things acknowledging that real life goes on that just give us that moment to reconnect with something different. Yeah. And I

Christian  

guess, maybe we should have done this at the top of the podcast, but sometimes I forget that, you know, not everybody is as immersed in the world, but when we talk about a hospitalist, yeah, what does that look like for you on a weekly basis? And how has that changed, I guess during COVID?

Dr Mark Shapiro  

Great question. So hospitalist and hospital medicine are one of the newest parts of healthcare delivery in the United States and around the world. 25 years old. I am a specialist in the care of hospitalized adults. So I take care of people in the hospital. I don't have an outpatient practice. Hospital Medicine has grown faster than any profession in the history of American medicine. And we're everywhere. Most major hospital systems utilize hospitals to care for their patients who are hospitalized by background In my training as an internal medicine, hospitalist. We're primarily Internal Medicine trained or family medicine trained, but all of the sub specialties now virtually have created their own hospitalist programs, whether it's OB GYN, hospitalist surgical hospitalist cardiology hospitals, because that model of having people kind of omnipresent in the hospital setting has been so successful in terms of morbidity reduction, mortality, reduction, quality improvement, all of the things that we know are important. It's been a huge driver of that. So that's been my career, I finished my residency in 2006. I've been a hospitalist ever since the pandemic has, it's been an exercise in disaster management. I've been through some disasters before h1 and one influenza. When I was attending in San Diego, we've been through where I live some major wildfires over the last several years that have affected where I live dramatically. Disaster Management writ large, not only in scope, but in duration. And so it's really just been that test of endurance, that test of will that test of all of the things that you are trained to have in medicine, oftentimes trained in ways that are not healthy. And now we have to deploy them for an extended period of time with mitigating circumstances that are you could not have made them up. It's very, very trying my day to day schedule, for the most part is the same, but the way and the environment in which we practice is totally different. When I say said earlier, like how we're going to piece ourselves back together. That's what I'm referring to. I mean, this has been disruptive in its entirety. Yeah, yeah.

Brett   

Well, speaking of different specializations we were Krishna and I have been talking and we were wondering if Ted lasso were a physician, what do you think he would specialize hospitalist? Done

Dr Mark Shapiro  

hospitalist he's hired? Come on, I've got the contract drafted. All I need is a signature. Let's get this. I mean, he's a hospitalist. I will debate it. I'll debate it. I mean, of course, like there's lots of folks that enjoying you know, med lasso and intensive care doctors, surgeons, they're all welcome. They can take a shot. I am a really, really good recruiter. Ted lasso is a hospitalist period.

Brett   

What kind of doctor was Patch Adams? Yeah.

Christian  

So was he a Pediatric Hospitalist?

Dr Mark Shapiro  

I never saw the movie. It's already they bring that up. I've been missing Robin Williams. Oh, same the last few weeks, you guys. Yeah. So on our med lasso exchange. And on our last episode, we had a doctor from Australia on she's a an OB GYN and back Sabo. And she is the one who called this out because I had shared on Twitter, I'm missing Robin Williams. I love him. He lived in my in my hometown for a while. And he's Robin Williams. But I was like, Oh, I'm like watching old videos. And really, man, I've just I missed that comedy. I missed that. I missed what he put into the world. There's that article about how Jason Sudeikis says like, they built a lot of the TED lasso aphorisms mindset approach. On Robin Williams. Yeah. Oh, this all makes perfect sense. Of course, I'm missing him. I keep seeing, you know, reflections of him in the show. That means so much to me.

Brett   

In between season one and season two, my brother in law and I were actually talking about, like, how, how much like Robin Williams energy is in the TED lassos show and just like really reminiscing on like, Wow, he really had range, like all the all the fields. So not that this is going to turn into a Robin Williams appreciation pot. Totally fine. But

Christian  

I will say one other I mean, part of appreciation is that my wife like in her as she was had in her mind, you know, in high school and college that she was going to pursue medicine, like patch, Adams was a very inspiring piece of work for her. Yeah, just in terms of like what it can mean to practice medicine while putting good into the world.

Dr Mark Shapiro  

I like that sentence a lot. Because I don't like platitudes. I don't speak in platitudes, I find them about without value, and they impair good conversation, and they impair the development. But we do seek to go into medicine to put good into the world, people come to the hospital or the clinic most of the time because something is going wrong. And we want to seek to make that different or better in whatever way we can, acknowledging that we may not be successful on some of the goals, but we can we can do our best to smooth the journey. And I think in that idea of putting good into the world, that's not a platitude. I think we should all seek to do that. And when we watch shows like this, patch, Adams, Ted lasso, where the those central dogma are people who are trying to do this, and also being very honest and transparent about how the world around them, it's chaotic, and tries to stop them and interferes. It really resonates. It's really sticky because it's a reflection of what we're seeking to do. Especially the part about the world around us feeling chaotic and throwing up barriers.

Christian  

Yeah, yeah. What would you say is something you've learned since the pandemic started that if you could, you'd go back and tell your pre pandemic self

Dr Mark Shapiro  

who Ooh, boy, you think I've been asked that before, I have not been asked that. You are going to have to tap into new levels of courage, but you do have them. Just like everybody else, when the first time I had to take care of COVID patients, even though I had all my PPE on, I was scared, it was scary. of a young boy at home. There's a lot that was at stake for me personally. And it was scary. And I had to find the level of courage that I did not know that I had. And I found it by watching the nursing staff, the Environmental Services staff, the respiratory therapist, the physical therapist, who'd already been taking care of COVID patients before me who are moving in and out of those rooms smoothly, professionally, and kindly. And watching them do it as Mark, you want to do this, you want to be a physician, you, you've been a physician for a long time, you're a leader, you're seeing this organization, as a leader, do it, you're not leading, you're just doing what you're already seeing. But you have to do it, just take your time, apply the principles that you know, work for you and go, That for me was was a was a huge step. And I think that if I could go back and tell myself that like it would be, you have the tools that you need, you have the courage, you'll need to sustain it. But you've got it.

Brett   

Yeah, I would definitely tell myself that it is going to last a lot longer than you think it's going to last. Yeah,

Dr Mark Shapiro  

that's a good one too. For sure. I had a feeling that we were going to be in a weird place for a while for a variety of reasons. But I just had this feeling that this is not going to be a seasonal thing that's just going to fade away, this is going to be different. And it's different. You know, it's different, we are a generation that will deal with these challenges, and they will be part of the tapestry of our lives. And that's, that's life. That's not a platitude. That's just where we are, we just do the best we can to do good and put good into the world.

Brett   

I like how you mentioned in that question, going back and telling yourself that like you have the tools like you have the capacity to deal with this. What do you think, are some of the ways that medical students today and residents are going to be trained differently, to react to something like this in the future, then say, like you and your cohorts were trained?

Dr Mark Shapiro  

I love that question. There's gonna be books written about that question. And I will enter thusly, for me to surmise to understand the experience of medical students, residents and fellows trainees, in the pandemic, acknowledging that in my practice, I don't work with medical students, residents or trainees, I feel like it would be it would be an element of hubris for me to try to even surmise what they're going through. They are to their credit, though, transparent about it, they write about it, they podcast about it, they talk about it, they use the various platforms where they have tremendous influence to share these stories. And I'm super grateful for it. There are a variety of places where they shirt certainly should have been treated differently and better by their home institutions, particularly in the early days of pandemic. But I think that we are going to learn a lot through the rock flipping exercise that they are putting our profession through. And I hope that we can take those lessons on board, but I think that we can ask that question and get the answers directly from them. They don't need a mid career, hospitalist to say what it is, it's there for the taking.

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Christian  

Yeah, yeah. You may not work with interns or residents or students but you have been recognized for your leadership in the field. And one of the places where you were recently recognized is when you receive the I stand with her hashtag he or she award at the 2021 women in medicine Summit. And, you know, I guess like kind of that subversive nature in comparison to what Western society sometimes tells us about you know, the place of women or the the value A woman like Ted Lasso, tries to turn that on its head. And it sounds like you've developed some healthy habits around ally ship. What has that looked like for you over the last few years? And where do you see some of those lessons? I guess, where do you get some of those lessons from the show?

Dr Mark Shapiro  

medicine in the United States has a wide variety of structural problems, structural issues that impair our ability to do the first thing that we're supposed to do, which is take care of patients. Then the second thing we're supposed to do, which is take care of our teams, and our teammates, and our organizations. And the third thing we're supposed to do, which is take care of ourselves, the structural problems are myriad. They are structural problems around race, around gender, around equity, around environmental impact around public health around advocacy, that's just start the list. For me, one of the things again, kind of going back to the show is demonstrating the courage to acknowledge those things and be accountable to them. One of the things I love about the show is, for the most part, the characters are accountable to each other. When they receive feedback, they take it initially, however, they're going to take it, but they tried to develop and get better. They try to adapt themselves. I think that the writers and the producers and the actors have made it a real point of emphasis to say, humans can do better. And as they're doing better, they can be supported and not judged and hammered. For us to move through some of these massive issues that we face in American healthcare, we have to have a similar mindset. But for me, as a white male, mid career physician, to opt out to say, there is no role for me in the move to improve gender equity in American medicine. I can't do that. It's not how I was raised. It's not how I was trained. It's not what my my wife expects of me what my mom and my dad and my sister expected me it's not what my colleagues expected me, and it's not what I expected myself, the opportunities to learn about it acknowledging that we can't say that we aren't seeing these problems anymore, that Oh, no, they don't exist here, like those days are over. So now it's, you have to opt in, or else the when people look at the arc of your career, they'll see something's missing here. So now it's how do I learn? How do I come into this from a place of receptivity, acknowledging that can be very, very uncomfortable. And that's where I think some of our social media, social media communities that we build are so wonderful, because there are people out there who will teach and who will educate and allow you to grow. And I've benefited directly from it through explore the space podcast. I mean, there's there's a whole archive on gender equity from leaders who I mean, the work they do is just It's awe inspiring. And so for me to be able to build on that and continue to do that work. It's extraordinarily meaningful. And I think that when we look at a TV show that resonates to this level, where like, as you were recording, I'm wearing the shirt, like I don't do this stuff, right? It's because it taps into those same feelings of how can we interact with one another as human beings amidst chaotic times amid struggle limits, things that make a super uncomfortable, but still step into the tension and do the work.

Brett   

So good. I just had to like, stop and think about it. I have a question. And then maybe a follow up have Have you watched scrubs?

Dr Mark Shapiro  

I did. I did. What scrubs I have seen in here is if you guys can get But speaking of pop culture, I've seen the bulk of the series if you get that movie reference five points to you. And so I was during medical school and residency that I watched the bulk of the series and again, five points if you get the movie reference. And I I'm happy to share my opinion of Scrubs when you're ready.

Brett   

So when I think about scrubs, obviously one of things I think about you know you have tucking JD but you also have Dr. Cox and kind of his we'll call it a mentorship role to all of these other folks in the hospital. What are some ways that you like some similarities and differences? You see, because this is also a Bill Lawrence show. So what are the similarities and differences that you see with kind of like the way Dr. Cox oversees folks versus like Ted and beard?

Dr Mark Shapiro  

Yeah, so right. Scrubs is satire in the most amazing way it is Apex satire. It's a brilliant depiction of how medicine is practiced in training in training hospital. So an inpatient facilities. It's not entirely accurate. It's the most accurate representation that we have thus far. Bill Lawrence is a genius to be able to take mentorship, leadership and coaching and do it in two totally different ways because Dr. Cox is a sarcastic jerk most of the time. But you see these moments of real warmth, you see these moments of real empathy. Ted lasso, for me is is much the opposite. To do those two things so artfully is really it's really amazing. I would like American medicine to strive to have leaders at the bedside who moved more in the Ted Lasso frame of mind as opposed to the Dr. Cox frame of mind. Because when you're POST call and you've been awake for 24 hours, and your patients are sick, and you've got a bunch of work to do before you get to go home. sarcasm and snark don't always land the way you want them to. And it's on you as the attending to acknowledge that you have to support your team the way that they need. Not the way that you want to do it. We pause for a second it looks like cya jumping in. He's almost here. Come on power. Hey, can you hear me guys? Hey, what's up? Oh, man, I'm so sorry. Can you see me? Yeah. Can you see me? Oh, that's so sad. We are we've got I think we've got like 10 or 15 minutes left, and they were asking me questions about scrubs. So let me wrap up the scrubs thing and enter the next one to say it.

Brett   

Yeah, that's great. I have one more follow up question about scrubs. And that is one of the things that a lot of folks pointed out when they realize like, Oh, this is a Bill Lawrence thing was the relationships between the male characters and like how well those were written. And they kind of contrast that with scrubs and that like, that wasn't always as well fleshed out in scrubs as it is. And so,

Dr Mark Shapiro  

one of the things that came out for me, watching TED Lassa was exactly what you just described the way that they depict masculinity. And I have not gone back and rewatched scrubs I've tried over the years and even though I'm there's part I mean, I remember it, but I haven't found it to be like rewatchable I remember I know exactly what you're referring to though. There was an episode of our med last from explore the space podcast episode, there was one of them when we talked about this issue of masculinity and how it's depicted on TED not so that's one of the My Favorite Things, ever aspirational masculinity, how can we as men, you know, as we identify ourselves as men, how can we be the best of ourselves. And as an example SIADH and I have not met in person. When we meet saya you may not know this, you are getting a Roy Kent quality hug from me. And I can't wait.

Dr. Sayed Tabatabai  

Oh, my goodness, I can't wait either. That's incredible.

Dr Mark Shapiro  

These are the things that for me as an adult man are important and meaningful. I don't mind saying that. I don't mind saying SIADH is my friend. I don't mind saying I can't wait to hang out with you guys at a barbecue table and just get after it for four hours. I like those things. And the way that this show has validated the male experience of telling other men, You're important to me, I value you, I care about you, I love you. I am angry with you, I want you to do better, and I'm here to support you doing better. These are the women in my life. These are my partners in my life. This is how I amplify and respect and take care of them. This is aspirational masculinity, and I absolutely love it.

Christian  

It is great and Dr. Tabatabai has been able to join us now and we are happy that we're able to have him on the podcast as well. And I have a question for you as Dr. Shapiro's partner in crime in metal and on the metal. So episodes of his podcast, what would you say is the most interesting table? So take? You've heard from a guest on explore the space?

Dr. Sayed Tabatabai  

Well, that's such a great question. Um, we've had so many great guests and so many different viewpoints. I think I'm one that sent that to me, because it I really had no idea whatsoever until the guest was on the show was how scenes with Dr. fieldstone were perceived by real people in Dr. fieldstones field when Dr. Jesse gold was on the podcast. And she was talking about it, and different aspects of that from a real practical mental health and psychiatric viewpoint. That was that was interesting to me. And I hadn't appreciated also how parts of the show could be perceived as quote unquote work, which for me initially was one of the issues with scrubs is that I had this like personal mantra that I would never watch shows that had medicine in them because I was done with it. I got back there her talking about that. And then the problematic aspects a little bit about head, you know, falling back or fieldstone home against her wishes, but telling him not to and then waiting for her there and stuff like that. So I kind of opened my eyes a little bit. I hadn't really thought about it. I mean, it's great narrative for the show. But it can it can get a little sticky in the week.

Christian  

Yeah, and there's certainly some evolution there. I know, at the beginning of the season, I think there was a rub with some mental health care professionals that Dr. Fieldstone was solving everybody's problems right away. And it's not like it takes more than an hour. And then obviously, like they flushed her as a character out a bit. And so there's sort of that evolution of what's going on here. And what does this look like? One of the interesting things about you is you are an amazing writer, and especially in that fiction realm and there have been times where you've taken your fiction and what I guess it's technically kind of a science fiction slant, and then you release some of that stuff on Twitter. And so then the public gets to it. Enjoy it in in that format. How did you get into writing fiction and what made you decide to start to release some of that as tweets?

Dr. Sayed Tabatabai  

You know, my writing has always been a part of what I love to do, ever since I was younger, I used to journal and it's a way that I express myself, it's one of the few creative things that I do. And, for me, it, it helps me sort out my thoughts. And that helps me sort out my feelings, and it helps me deal with them, to write them out and see where it takes me in with the fiction part of it, especially in COVID. You know, I kept trying to at different points in this quote unquote, dark forest from that last phrase that we've been in. I've kept trying to visualize what is the other side of this look like? Is there another side, and you can sort of tell from my writing, what my viewpoint is, you know, how pessimistic I've been, how optimistic I've been. And originally, when I was writing these threads actually way pre COVID, I just started writing them on Twitter, because I was messing around with the format that Twitter has this restricted limited format, and I discovered the pride feature. Now that okay, you can kind of create these tweets together, it's an it's an interesting writing form, it's almost like, I like poetry or something like that we have tight restrictions. And something about the nature of the tweets makes it interesting to each tweet is like a self contained little little chunk. And then together, they sort of develop this momentum, as they pull you through the tweets, you know, I had a lot of fun with that. And then bam, here comes COVID. And it stopped being fun so much as it started being therapeutic. And then I started resonating with people, and other people who are in the dark force were like, Okay, this is, you know, this is sort of how I feel too, and, and it just kind of went from there. And I never could have imagined the response that I got, you know, for something that started out very personal. Now, I feel like it's a great honor to know that a lot of people, it resonated with a lot of people.

Christian  

So this is the dark forest. And you mentioned that, you know, you have some pessimism maybe about the future. And Dr. Shapiro has mentioned that it feels kind of nebulous and unknown. Let's just postulate that when season three, title, so comes around, and it's this third act, and I joked with Brett that like, you know, we can't get to the he walks without the dark forest. And so when hopefully that like third stanza of title, so is celebratory, what would have to happen, just with the American public at large for us to be in a place where a season of Ted Lasso was released. And we're not in pandemic crisis mode, as has been the case, when the last two seasons were released?

Unknown Speaker  

That's a really good question. What happens if the mood of the show is not as match fit as it's been? Oh, I'm stuck. I love it. I love this question, holy cow. I don't think there'll be a backlash. I think people are gonna love it no matter what it's doing. But I think that that sense of resonance, that sense of they are really seeing our experience right now acknowledging that this stuff is being written now. Like they're in the writers room now. Right? Yeah. Is we have to give them that grace. I think that if it's a show, and they're, you know, winning the Premier League, and you know, Jamie Tartt is off on his Hall of Fame career and all of the, all the chips are falling in line for all the players. And it won't be right, we know, it'll be messy, because it's like, I still think we'll love it. And even if things are super hard, and we're dealing with COVID, and we're dealing with climate change related disasters, and we're dealing with whatever life puts in front of us, I might even say, the more celebratory it is, the better because it'll just give us that sense of remove. It'll give us that sense of well, for 30 minutes, I get to escape where I am right now. And then for 30 more minutes, I and I get to talk absolute hot nonsense about it on head Lasso, I mean, directly into my veins, right?

Dr. Sayed Tabatabai  

Yeah, I totally agree with Mark on them when it's been kind of amazing. Almost every med last, I think we've commented on how much they're hitting the nail on the head in terms of the current mood, but even if that goes away, the kind of unique nature of Tesla so in the sense that I don't know another show out there, that's like it in terms of the unfettered kind of optimism and positive positivity and believe and kind, all that kind of stuff. I think that's always going to apply. And I think that's always going to uplift this and one thing I would add though, as a Star Wars purist is, are you really out of the dark forest if there are Ewoks in it? 

Christian  

Oh MAN! Well, we appreciate your guys time today, we appreciate just the effort, I think in continuing to keep conversations going and uplifting medical professionals and developing that community because as you guys have talked about, and as we know, it's just been a very isolating and difficult and exhausting time. And that's been needed. So we appreciate your work. And we appreciate you guys chopping it up with title. So and we'll keep we'll keep rooting for you. And hopefully, this this thing gets turned around.

Dr Mark Shapiro  

Well, thank you for having us both on and I'll just say, right, this is that sense of community building now we're connected. This is this is totally profession agnostic. We're all kind of in the same boat. Our struggles are similar and dissimilar, but we're all struggling and the fact that we can find some shared space and time around this as a total blast. Thank you so much for having us on. Super cool.

Christian  

Thanks, guys. Yeah, we

Brett   

had a ton of fun. Thanks for being with us, y'all.

Dr. Sayed Tabatabai  

Thanks so much.

Brett

Okay, that's our show. We'll be back on the dog track in just one week with our conversation about Episode 10 titled, the hope that kills you. You can check out the show notes for links to learn more about the cool and interesting stuff we mentioned in this episode.

And you can keep the conversation going on Twitter and Instagram. Our handle is @TedLassoPod. It's a great way for us to connect with each other and for y'all to share your insights on the show.

Brett   

Richmond Til We Die is brought to you by Gin and Kerosine Productions. It was produced by me, Brett Callan, Marisa Callan and Christian Dashiell.

Brett Callan also had the pleasure of editing, mixing and composing the music for this episode. If you enjoyed our conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to Richmond Til We Die on whatever app you are using to listen to this episode.

One more quick reminder that if you have access to an Apple device, we'd love it. If you could head over to the Apple podcasts app and give us a quick five star review. It'll help more people find the show. Thanks for listening. Until next time, cheers y'all

Transcribed by https://otter.ai